1. Bill - 23 November 2007

    A recent power outage has convinced me that it would be a good idea to consider a surge protector and uninterruptible power supply. Does anyone have recommendations on what to look for? Is there any reason to buy both a surge protector and UPS?

  2. Jolly Roger - 23 November 2007

    Typically, an uninterruptible power supply *is* a surge protector - and a *real* one, at that. Most cheap power strip surge protectors won't protect your equipment nearly as well as a UPS will. I call them "fake" surge protectors. They provide only the minimum in protection.

    I grew up in New Orleans, which is notorious for really bad lightning storms and really bad grounding - not a good combination. I've seen many a relative's or friend's house get struck by lightning many times over, with resulting electronic equipment damage - from modems, to Ethernet cards, to displays and CPU power supplies. It didn't take much to convince them that replacing all of that equipment was expensive. So years ago, I started setting my family members up with UPS systems. Since then, not one of them has had a computer casualty due to lightning strikes.

    For computer equipment, I highly recommend "Back-UPS RS" UPS systems from American Power Conversion (APC).

    <http://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=23>

    I have family members and friends using Back-UPS ES models to protect computer equipment as well:

    <http://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=21>

    These systems are top quality, have never failed us, and come with excellent lifetime data recovery warranties.

    Note: You want to be sure to get the right model for your setup, because each model is rated differently and offers not only a different length of run time on battery, but also a different amount of protection from surges and spikes. APC has a very nice wizard that makes it relatively easy to determine which model best suits your needs - just follow the prompts:

    <http://www.apc.com/tools/ups_selector/index.cfm>

    Here at home (currently in Austin, Texas), I work from home 80% of the time. We live in the hilly area of Austin and get some fairly violent thunder storms all year round. I use a pair of Back-UPS RS 1500VA units to protect my entire office and smaller UPS models to protect other important equipment around the house. I have *zero* hesitation about leaving my computers plugged in and turned on during thunder storms, because I know I am well-protected.

    Note: Please send all responses to the relevant news group. If you must contact me through e-mail, let me know when you send email to this address so that your email doesn't get eaten by my SPAM filter.

    JR

  3. TaliesinSoft - 23 November 2007

    On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:22:18 -0600, Jolly Roger wrote (in a previous article):

    Here at home (currently in Austin, Texas) .......

    Jolly Roger,

    Now, as a resident of Austin and an active member of the local Macintosh user group, CapMac, I'm curious as to whether we've ever met in person. Feel free to write me at <taliesinsoft@mac.com>

    Jim

    James Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas ..... taliesinsoft@mac.com

  4. Kurt Ullman - 23 November 2007

    Previously, Jolly Roger wrote:

    http://www.apc.com/tools/ups_selector/index.cfm

    I was just going over some stuff and I find my UPS is 9 years old. Do these "wear out" or would it still be good.

  5. VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG - 23 November 2007

    The Back-UPS units are dumb. If you want to use APC's software (or a third party product) to monitor your UPS and or shutdown your systems when appropriate, I'd suggest you look into APC's Smart-UPS. They're priced higher than the dumb Back-UPS but you do get some intelligence in the Smart-UPS.

    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  6. Madwen - 23 November 2007

    Frequent power outages are one thing but, just to be crystal clear for lightning prone areas, UPS and localized surge protector devices offer only minimal, and almost always only one-time protection *at the very best* from lightning events. It is a common myth that devices must be plugged in to suffer damage--- as though electrical wiring is the only conductor. All it takes is ionization of the local humid atmosphere to damage sensitive electronics. You can zap any chips in your computer with static electricity from the carpets while your surge protector guards the wall receptacle. In case the OP does live in a lightning prone area, he should know that whole-house lightning protection systems (air terminals, cable and grounding rods) are the only method offering the most effective, reliable protection.

  7. Jolly Roger - 23 November 2007

    All that talk is great and all, but it doesn't reflect actual experience. The fact is I have had several family members (and it's even happened to me) lose Ethernet ports, modems, power supplies, and so on to lightning strikes. But since installing and using UPS systems, not one of them has had a single problem like that.

    Note: Please send all responses to the relevant news group. If you must contact me through e-mail, let me know when you send email to this address so that your email doesn't get eaten by my SPAM filter.

    JR

  8. Tom Stiller - 23 November 2007

    Unfortunately, one can't prove a negative.

    Tom Stiller

    PGP fingerprint = 5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3 7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF

  9. Jolly Roger - 23 November 2007

    I don't know why APC's software would require a Smart-UPS (well actually, maybe they do that to try to force you to purchase a more expensive unit). ; ) But I've never found APC's own software very robust or compelling in terms of features and stability anyway. In fact, other UPS software not made by APC works just fine, and even better, with other models.

    For instance, Back-UPS units certainly work just fine with Apple's built-in UPS management software - they show up in Energy Saver, and your computer will shut down appropriately when the battery drains to specified levels.

    Also, the open source apcupsd software works great with them as well, and lets you do really advanced things like shut down an entire network of Macs, Windows, and Linux computers when battery power reaches specified levels:

    <http://www.apcupsd.org/>

    IMO, there's no need to purchase the more expensive Smart-UPS model with the cheaper Back-UPS will do the job.

    Note: Please send all responses to the relevant news group. If you must contact me through e-mail, let me know when you send email to this address so that your email doesn't get eaten by my SPAM filter.

    JR

  10. Jolly Roger - 23 November 2007

    All batteries decrease in usefulness over the coarse of time. But the unit itself probably still works. I know APC has a trade-in program where you can trade in old units for discounts on new ones. You might check into that - have a look on their web site or give them a call for details.

    Note: Please send all responses to the relevant news group. If you must contact me through e-mail, let me know when you send email to this address so that your email doesn't get eaten by my SPAM filter.

    JR

  11. Madwen - 23 November 2007

    And speaking of "all that talk", first you make a claim you have no way of knowing ("doesn't reflect actual experience") and then you make one of the most common and silly logical fallacies. I hope you're willing to pay those family members for the damage that can certainly occur from a close lightning strike with such meager, undependable protection as localized surge protectors alone in a lightning-prone area. I suggest that you brush up on electricity and lightning protection. You could start here if you're willing to set your bloated ego aside and review some facts:

    <http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/lpts.html>

    We live in a lightning prone area on a ridge and, after a couple thousand $$ in losses *with* surge protectors, we had a whole-house system professionally installed to include air terminals, cabling, grounding rods and two "whole-house" suppressors at the main. This was in addition to plug-in suppressors at given electronics. And even then, no credible expert would ever absolutely guarantee against all losses.

  12. Melodious Thunk - 23 November 2007

    Good thread, mostly accurate information.

    About batteries: the lead-acid batteries in APC (& other UPSs) are rated for five years' service. They'll typically last at least 7 years.

    Beyond that, you can take your personal automotive battery experience as a guide (if you're old enough). One of my motorcycles, a 1995 Yamaha, has its original Yukasa battery, now 12 years old & still charging/discharging strong. That's atypical in my experience. None of my cars have ever had 12 year old batteries.

    With a 9 or 10 year old UPS, the only way you can rely on its battery is to test it, *under load,* and see how long it lasts. If it lasts for 80 percent of its rated time, it'll probably last another year. Maybe you'll be lucky, but you won't know until you test it. On the other hand, replacing a battery is often as expensive as replacing the whole unit.

    I was in the UPS industry about 9 years as a tech writer, & APC was one of the companies I did freelance work for. Their stuff is among the best small stuff, but *all* the inexpensive UPSs nowadays (and they come under dozens of labels) are made by a handful of Korean & Chinese companies, then re-labeled... so it's only service that distinguishes the various "manufacturers." (Large-scale UPSs are different.)

  13. Jolly Roger - 23 November 2007

    Pffft... Whatever. My ego isn't bloated - I'm perfectly happy to admit I'm no electrician. But what I have said is true: my experience has shown that UPSs do help save equipment.

    We live in a lightning prone area on a ridge and, after a couple thousand $$ in losses *with* surge protectors, we had a whole-house system professionally installed to include air terminals, cabling, grounding rods and two "whole-house" suppressors at the main. This was in addition to plug-in suppressors at given electronics. And even then, no credible expert would ever absolutely guarantee against all losses.

    These family members can't afford whole-house protection systems. And I didn't claim to be an expert, and I never offered any guarantee. If you think APC's practice of offering equipment replacement warranties is a fallacy, take it up with them.

    Note: Please send all responses to the relevant news group. If you must contact me through e-mail, let me know when you send email to this address so that your email doesn't get eaten by my SPAM filter.

    JR

  14. Kurt Ullman - 24 November 2007

    I shall, thanks.

  15. VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG - 24 November 2007

    I've seen this site.

    IMO, there's no need to purchase the more expensive Smart-UPS model with the cheaper Back-UPS will do the job.

    See the /manual/Supported_UPSes_Cables.html page at your link above. It shows most of the APC UPSs (the proper way to pluralize UPS, not UPSes) are dumb.

    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  16. VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG - 24 November 2007

    Coarse of time... is that a rough time? ;)

    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  17. Madwen - 24 November 2007

    Previously, Jolly Roger wrote:

    Whatever. My experience flies in the face of your suppositions. Deal with it.......

    You haven't mentioned a single thing to disprove any of the facts I or the National Lightning Safety Institute enumerated about lightning protection. Instead, all you've done is whinge about your so called experience (a huge data set of a few family members who've had no "experiences"... LOL) and spew out trite little cliches like "whatever" and "deal with it". And all this because your fragile, wounded ego cannot tolerate the merest hint that your information might have a few holes in it. Confronted with science, you make personal attacks like an oaf, woefully unable to piece together any manner of cogent argument. Congratulations. You've earned a place in my permanent killfile for wasting my time with such silly, puerile drivel.

  18. John Holt - 24 November 2007

    My Back-UPS ES 350 appears to indicate charge level, but that my really be just the Mac software making things up (like a progress bar) when the units signals that it is charging.

    In any event, the most important advise I can offer is to be certain to size your UPS based upon the total processor box AND your monitor.

    Also, if you needed to use a USB hub to connect, don't forget to include the hub and to put the hub on the backup power.

    John Holt

  19. Jolly Roger - 24 November 2007

    Heh. : ) Oops. How'd that "a" get in there, dammit?

    Note: Please send all responses to the relevant news group. If you must contact me through e-mail, let me know when you send email to this address so that your email doesn't get eaten by my SPAM filter.

    JR

  20. Jolly Roger - 24 November 2007

    I'm not interested in arguing with you, which is why you are so upset about this. I'm relaying my personal experience and you just can't stand that. Too fucking bad.

    Congratulations. You've earned a place in my permanent killfile for wasting my time with such silly, puerile drivel.

    I guess this means I'll never talk with you again. Goody!

    Note: Please send all responses to the relevant news group. If you must contact me through e-mail, let me know when you send email to this address so that your email doesn't get eaten by my SPAM filter.

    JR

  21. Jolly Roger - 24 November 2007

    It's a great piece of software, if you ask me! I love open source!

    Hmmm... I guess the real question is: How dumb? Any of them with USB cables seem to be smart enough for casual use, even medium-scale network use.

    Note: Please send all responses to the relevant news group. If you must contact me through e-mail, let me know when you send email to this address so that your email doesn't get eaten by my SPAM filter.

    JR

  22. Jolly Roger - 24 November 2007

    If it's anything like the other Back-UPS ES models I've messed with, it is indeed a true charge level, and there's much more information you can get from it (see my other post for a sample of that information).

    In any event, the most important advise I can offer is to be certain to size your UPS based upon the total processor box AND your monitor.

    Also, if you needed to use a USB hub to connect, don't forget to include the hub and to put the hub on the backup power.

    Definitely do that. APC's wizard will help you with this!

    Note: Please send all responses to the relevant news group. If you must contact me through e-mail, let me know when you send email to this address so that your email doesn't get eaten by my SPAM filter.

    JR

  23. Richard Maine - 24 November 2007

    This prompted me to go take a new look at apcupsd. I was at least generally familliar with it, as I used to use it on my Linux servers before I retired from NASA.

    Now I'm just looking at this single home iMac that is on the UPS. Several other systems around the house, but this is the only one on the UPS, so it is a pretty simple setup.

    I'm wondering what the benefit of using apcupsd over the built-in Apple UPS support is? I tried it and it does seem to work. I do notice that it gives me a lot more detailed information, but I have to give up the fairly nice integration of the built-in Apple stuff. I'm also not real happy about having to install a kernel extension to disable the Apple bit.

    For the moment, after brief experimentation, I uninstalled apcupsd (which took a lot more work to figure out how to do than it ought to have; the docs only showed how to do that using "make uninstall", so I ended up downloading the source in order to do the uninstall, even though I had installed from the binary).

    I'm wondering whether there is any big reason to prefer apcupsd for a simple home situation like mine. Yes, multi-server, multi-architecture setups like I was dealing with at work are different. Apcupsd was clearly the thing to use there.

    Richard Maine | Good judgement comes from experience; email: last name at domain . net | experience comes from bad judgement. domain: summertriangle | -- Mark Twain

  24. Jolly Roger - 24 November 2007

    Well here at my home, we have several computers running off two Back-UPS RS 1500 UPSs, so apcupsd's ability to do network shutdowns is very handy.

    For your environment, about the only reason I can think of is that apcupsd is more configurable than Apple's simplistic built-in software. You can script the living you-know-what out of apcupsd.

    For instance, I customize apcupsd events so that before shutting down my closet server, it quits certain processes/applications in a graceful manner if they are running. I don't know of a way to do that kind of thing with Apple's stuff. Other than that, I'd say Apple's built-in support is just fine.

    Note: Please send all responses to the relevant news group. If you must contact me through e-mail, let me know when you send email to this address so that your email doesn't get eaten by my SPAM filter.

    JR

  25. nospamatall - 24 November 2007

    I thought he was talking about protection from surges and power-outs caused by lightning, not actual direct hits by thunderbolts. It seems to me that you are bringing that in yourself.

    Andy

  26. J.J. O'Shea - 24 November 2007

    Nothing, absolutely nothing, will defend against direct hits from lightening. However, a good UPS will defend against just about anything short of a direct hit. A surge protector will _not_ defend against the kind of surges caused by lightening close aboard, and neither will a SPS. A UPS will. The UPS may, and probably will, be destroyed in the process, but it will block the surge.

    email to oshea dot j dot j at gmail dot com.

  27. Madwen - 24 November 2007

    Oh fuck off. You didn't even read what I said; you're just piling on.

  28. Jolly Roger - 24 November 2007

    A lot of what you've said is inflammatory personal bullshit - that might have something to do with people not wanting to read it.

    Note: Please send all responses to the relevant news group. If you must contact me through e-mail, let me know when you send email to this address so that your email doesn't get eaten by my SPAM filter.

    JR

  29. Little Sir Echo - 24 November 2007

    The fact remains that for most people most of the time a quality UPS/Surge Protector will do the job at a small fraction of the cost of whole house protection.

    Nothing--even the most expensive whole house system--will prevent all damage in the case of a direct hit by lightning.

    Many of us cannot afford the elaborate and expensive whole house lightning protection you are advocating.

    In addition, for those of us in rental housing or condos, whole house lightning protection is out of the question.

  30. VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG - 24 November 2007

    I'm running 2 APC Smart-UPS 2200 RM XL (5U) each with an external APC RM battery array (4u).

    At about 50% load, I can run for about 8 hours. Sadly, the power is usually dropping out during the hot summer months and, without process cooling, there's little chance of running for the full 8 hours. I've also have some APC SNMP "MasterSwitch"s. I can shutdown equipment that is not absolutely necessary if the power is out for a period. This can extend the time on the batteries to allow all of the network equipment (T1, routers, network switches) and the main internet server to remain on-line for a much longer period.

    I do not keep monitors on the UPS lines either. They are on the main lines and the whole house has a special Leviton lightning arrestor at the meter/breaker box. If I need to access a machine, I can ssh into any box using my Powerbook.

    It's a great piece of software, if you ask me! I love open source!

    Well, the APC _Smart_ protocol is NOT rocket science.

    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  31. nospamatall - 24 November 2007

    You are trying to assert that you have a scientific perspective, and yet you say I haven't read what you wrote. That's strange, how do you know I didn't read it? Because I don't agree with your attack on the OP? How scientific is that?

    And why tell me to fuck off? What I wrote was perfectly polite and reasoned. Perhaps you didn't read what I wrote? This kind of reply merely reinforces my opinion. And probably that of others. Is it just a bad day or is this you?

    Andy

  32. Jeffrey Goldberg - 24 November 2007

    For you I would say that the only advantage apcupsd is if you want to tinker and play with it.

    But for me, I make use of the network ability. For my main UPS, I have three machines on it. My desktop, my DMZ (world facing) server and my internal network server. I have other UPSen for things like switches and the firewall router which don't need clean shutdowns.

    I have my desktop machine shutdown almost immediately after we go to battery. I have my internal server shutdown once battery is down to 50%, and I have my DMZ server stay up till the very last minute.

    The USP for the switches and hubs out lasts the one for the main machines, so can still use my laptop until its battery runs out or the battery in the FiOS "modem" runs out.

    Things will change as I'm building a new (lower power draw) internal server which will be in a closet far from the main UPS.

    I'm wondering whether there is any big reason to prefer apcupsd for a simple home situation like mine.

    Nothing that I can think of.

    -j

    Jeffrey Goldberg http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/ I rarely read top-posted, over-quoting or HTML postings.
    http://improve-usenet.org/

  33. Jeffrey Goldberg - 24 November 2007

    In , Little Sir Echo wrote:

    The fact remains that for most people most of the time a quality UPS/Surge Protector will do the job at a small fraction of the cost of whole house protection.

    I do think that it is still worthwhile to point out that surge protectors can give a false sense of security. Most of us here already know that, but I still appreciate Madwen's urge to repeat that warning.

    -j

    Jeffrey Goldberg http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/ I rarely read top-posted, over-quoting or HTML postings.
    http://improve-usenet.org/

  34. Michael Vilain - 24 November 2007

    Jolly Roger's been around here a lot longer than you and contributed to may discussion threads. All I've ever seen you post is this thread.

    You get your nickers in a twist over what other people have experienced because it doesn't match yours.

    You're both pretty!!!

    Now move on girlfriend--the adult are busy talking.

    *PLONK*

    DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...

  35. Jolly Roger - 24 November 2007

    Sure, I don't debate that there's not much you can do to prevent damage from a direct lightning strike.

    At the same time, you have to balance that with the fact that APC includes a warranty with each (most?) UPS unit they sell that claims to replace any equipment plugged into the unit that is damaged due to a power surge or spike, up to a specified maximum of often hundreds of thousands of dollars (each unit has a different maximum and rating), even if the APC UPS is turned off at the time. Surges and spikes are *far* more common than direct lightning strikes, obviously.

    Note: Please send all responses to the relevant news group. If you must contact me through e-mail, let me know when you send email to this address so that your email doesn't get eaten by my SPAM filter.

    JR

  36. Jolly Roger - 24 November 2007

    Previously, Jeffrey Goldberg wrote:

    Things will change as I'm building a new (lower power draw) internal server which will be in a closet far from the main UPS.

    I use a separate, smaller UPS for my closet server. I had to run my own power and Ethernet lines into the closet, and hooked up an older UPS right in the closet while I was at it. I have apcupsd configured to shut down Retrospect gracefully (not as easy as it would seem due to Retrospect's nasty habit of throwing up confirmation dialog boxes on exit) and quit all other running applications gracefully before shutting down.

    Just curious - what type of hardware will you be using for your low power draw server?

    Note: Please send all responses to the relevant news group. If you must contact me through e-mail, let me know when you send email to this address so that your email doesn't get eaten by my SPAM filter.

    JR

  37. Jolly Roger - 24 November 2007

    Sounds like a sweet setup. I haven't invested much in power backup, obviously. So if I have a prolonged outage, I'm down for the count pretty quickly.

    Does apcupsd not support it? I assumed it would support it.

    Note: Please send all responses to the relevant news group. If you must contact me through e-mail, let me know when you send email to this address so that your email doesn't get eaten by my SPAM filter.

    JR

  38. VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG - 25 November 2007

    You said it was a great piece of software. I only meant that it wasn't rocket science to interface with APC's "Smart" protocol. If the people working the apcupsd spent more than an hour or two of effort, they shouldn't be coding.

    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  39. George Kerby - 25 November 2007

    Nine years of use? I would surmise it's time for a battery replacement.

  40. Jolly Roger - 25 November 2007

    Oh. Well for all I know apcupsd does support the smart protocol. I haven't ever bothered to check, not having a smart UPS around.

    Note: Please send all responses to the relevant news group. If you must contact me through e-mail, let me know when you send email to this address so that your email doesn't get eaten by my SPAM filter.

    JR

  41. Madwen - 25 November 2007

    Previously, Little Sir Echo wrote:

    The fact remains that for most people most of the time a quality UPS/Surge Protector will do the job at a small fraction of the cost of whole house protection.

    If you read my post, you would see that I was merely pointing out what worked in *lightening prone areas*.

  42. Madwen - 25 November 2007

    Previously, Michael Vilain wrote:

    Jolly Roger's been around here a lot longer than you and contributed to may discussion threads. All I've ever seen you post is this thread.

    No he hasn't. I've been posting here for over 10 years. But even if that were true, since when does tenure take precedence over fact?

  43. Madwen - 25 November 2007

    Previously, nospamatall wrote:

    And why tell me to fuck off?

    Because you are piling on like some 7th grade, pimple-faced child. You had nothing of substance to add to the topic and you still don't.

  44. Little Sir Echo - 25 November 2007

    I read your post and do not intend to deny the benefits of a whole house system.

    My point is that it is not an option for most people.

    It might be helpful if you would share with us the cost of your whole house lightning (not lightening) protection system.

    I suspect it is significantly more than the cost of a UPS/Surge Protector.

    Also, does a whole house system provide a warranty covering the cost of damages in the event it does not protect as intended?

    No doubt a properly installed and effectively working whole house system has advantages over a UPS/Surge Protector arrangement--I agree with you on that.

    But it is simply not cost effective for most people, especially those with moderate means.

  45. Jeffrey Goldberg - 25 November 2007

    In , Jolly Roger wrote:

    Just curious - what type of hardware will you be using for your low power draw server?

    It's not going to be a file server, so I'm using a Via mini-ITX box, I picked up off of ebay. It was obviously designed for some kind of media center because of kinds of video and audio it has.

    -j

    Jeffrey Goldberg http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/ I rarely read top-posted, over-quoting or HTML postings.
    http://improve-usenet.org/

  46. Madwen - 25 November 2007

    Some systems have warranties and some do not. It depends how much you want to pay and what kind of home insurance you have. There are also systems that can be installed be the home-owner for *far* less than ours.

    No doubt a properly installed and effectively working whole house system has advantages over a UPS/Surge Protector arrangement--I agree with you on that.

    But it is simply not cost effective for most people, especially those with moderate means.

    It's all relative. Once again, as with my first post in this thread, I am talking about people who live in lightning-prone areas--- not most people. I don't know why that distinction is so hard for some people to comprehend.

  47. nospamatall - 26 November 2007

    I wasn't adding anything, other than to correct your unwarranted attack on JR, and to point out how you had misundertood what he was saying. It was 3 lines. I don't know where you get this 'piling on' crap from. You should take a cold shower and go to bed for a day or two. I won't facilitate your disruption of the thread by replying to you further.

  48. Madwen - 26 November 2007

    You have a vivid imagination and, obviously, way too much time on your hands. I find it laughably amusing that you fancy yourself JR's little guardian pitbull. Do you fetch and roll over too?

    ...and to point out how you had misundertood what he was saying.

    As it stands, despite your pissy little posts, you've yet to actually say anything material whatsoever on the topic. What that continues to reveal about you is your apparent inability to contribute substantively and a prevailing predilection for petulant prevarication and piling on.

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