1. Davo - 17 April 2007

    My Mac Mini, version OSX 10.4.9, refuses to shut down correctly. The monitor displays a grey screen telling me I must switch off the Mini using the power button. I humbly obey but, when I switch on again, an annoying message tells me that the damned thing shut down unexpectedly. A minor and trivial niggle, I'm sure, but is there anything I can do to sort it?

  2. Stephen Adams - 17 April 2007

    This sounds like a kernel panic. Did you read the screen in detail? Try running DiskWarrior and/or TechTool Pro and scan the disk. One of the many possible causes of kernel panics (and a common one) is minor to moderate disk corruption.

    Fix the underlying problem that is causing the kernel panic. Start with the disk repair programs mentioned above. Let us know what happens after that....

    -Stephen

    Space Age Cybernomad Stephen Adams malchus842SP@AMgmail.com (remove SPAM to reply)

  3. Hans Aberg - 17 April 2007

    Why? Kernel panics seem to be caused by poor drivers often in connection with sleep. Ever since I turned computer sleep off (but keep screen sleep), I haven't had any.

    Hans Aberg

  4. Dave Balderstone - 17 April 2007

    Your experience (in many things) is not typical.

    I am extraordinarily patient, provided I get my own way in the end. - Margaret Thatcher

  5. Hans Aberg - 17 April 2007

    So what do you mean by that relative the technical issue at hand?

    Hans Aberg

  6. Jolly Roger - 17 April 2007

    He means experience shows that the OP's issue is likely not caused by a bug in sleep functionality.

    JR

  7. Dave Balderstone - 17 April 2007

    That your statement may be relevant to your own experience but is unlikely to have anything to do with the issue at hand, especially considering the OP never mentioned sleep as part of the problem, but rather shutdown. I'd be interested in seeing any technotes that describe kernel panics as a result of bad drivers and sleep, however.

    To Davo:

    What peripherals do you have connected? If you unplug them and start up, do you get the panic?

    As well, see <http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=303656> although it seems to be an obscure problem.

    Contrary to what Hans says, kernel panics are often hardware related, as you will see if you go to apple.com, click "Support" and enter "kernel panic" in the search field.

    Check your peripheral devices (mouse, keyboard, etc). Run disk diagnostics. Also consider testing the RAM and/or cracking the Mini open (or having someone do it) and reseating the RAM.

    I am extraordinarily patient, provided I get my own way in the end. - Margaret Thatcher

  8. Hans Aberg - 17 April 2007

    Contrary to what I said???

    Check your peripheral devices (mouse, keyboard, etc). Run disk diagnostics. Also consider testing the RAM and/or cracking the Mini open (or having someone do it) and reseating the RAM.

    How about reinstalling the OS?

    Hans Aberg

  9. Hans Aberg - 17 April 2007

    happens after

    Mind reader, please explain this further what he means, what experience?

    Hans Aberg

  10. Dave Balderstone - 17 April 2007

    You said "Kernel panics seem to be caused by poor drivers often in connection with sleep." Contrary to that statement, kernel panics are often hardware related. If you had said "Kernel panics may be caused by poor drivers in connection with sleep." I would not have used the word "contrary" but would still have pointed out that sleep was not mentioned in the original post. Shutdown was.

    It's an option. But if the OP has hardware that's causing the kernel panics it's unlikely to help.

    I am extraordinarily patient, provided I get my own way in the end. - Margaret Thatcher

  11. Jolly Roger - 17 April 2007

    I think I'll let him speak for himself.

    JR

  12. Hans Aberg - 17 April 2007

    The hardware needs drivers to communicate with the kernel. If that just fails in the realm of normal processes, the kernel panic should not happen.

    This last comment is though true. Therefore, one can try to turning computer sleep, and see if that helps.

    If computer sleep is off, then kernel panics can still happen, because the kernel is not 100% sure to not being able to handle faulty processes. In fact, I was able to bomb a Sun UNIX computer in the 1990s only doing some Netscape surfing. But this is should happen very rarely.

    Hans Aberg

  13. Hans Aberg - 17 April 2007

    Good! :-)

    Hans Aberg

  14. Jolly Roger - 17 April 2007

    Well the only reason I said anything is you seem to be on some sort of war path with Dave regarding kernel panics. And I have personal experience that shows kernel panics often have nothing at all to do with misbehaving drivers.

    JR

  15. Mike Rosenberg - 17 April 2007

    Also, the gist of Dave's contention Hans is that the OP's problem has nothing to do with sleep issues.

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  16. Jolly Roger - 17 April 2007

    I don't get what Hans is so worked up about. Yes, kernel panics can happen as a result of misbehaving drivers, but anyone saying there are absolutely no other causes isn't living in reality.

    JR

  17. Mike Rosenberg - 17 April 2007

    Oh, that's just Hans being Hans. I've learned from experience he's never wrong. Occasionally contrafactual, but never wrong. ;-)

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  18. Hans Aberg - 17 April 2007

    So you mean that if I responds to a personal attack by asking how that relates to the technical issue at hand, then I am going out at war??? Well, well, well.

    And I have personal
    experience that shows kernel panics often have nothing at all to do with misbehaving drivers.

    So should perhaps explain how you derive that experience. I mean, all one get to know is that the kernel got some code it cannot handle.

    Hans Aberg

  19. Hans Aberg - 17 April 2007

    Oh this is difficult English.

    ... is that the OP's problem has
    nothing to do with sleep issues.

    And how was this conclusion derived? The OP just said something about a green box saying the computer must be shut down by hand.

    Hans Aberg

  20. Hans Aberg - 17 April 2007

    Am I worked up, when I calmly try to get you to explain what you mean. Gosh!

    Yes, kernel panics can
    happen as a result of misbehaving drivers, but anyone saying there are absolutely no other causes isn't living in reality.

    Your suggestion look like coming from Mac OS 9. Yes, back then, those were right. But it is very difficult to bomb a UNIX kernel via ordinarily running processes. UNIX computers bomb very rarely, and therefore Internet is pretty much being run by them. Still Mac OS X can bomb via "kernel panics" much more often that other UNIX computers. Why is that so? There must something that causes it.

    Hans Aberg

  21. Hans Aberg - 17 April 2007

    Mike "Shirley" Rosenberg wrote:

    Oh, that's just Hans being Hans. I've learned from experience he's never wrong. Occasionally contrafactual, but never wrong. ;-)

    Shirley!

    One thing is for sure, that Mike does never admit his mistakes of significance, just look at the thread "Disk repair fails". Boy, did he really stupid remarks there. But did he post admitting that he was a dumbass there. Nope!

    By Shirley!

    Hans Aberg

  22. Jolly Roger - 17 April 2007

    On 2007-04-17 17:24:19 -0500, Hans Aberg said:

    One thing is for sure, that Mike does never admit his mistakes of significance

    Pot, meet Kettle.

    JR

  23. Dave Balderstone - 17 April 2007

    Go back and read the original message. The OP is getting the panic AT SHUTDOWN and *not* waking from sleep. The OP never mentions sleep.

    I am extraordinarily patient, provided I get my own way in the end. - Margaret Thatcher

  24. Jolly Roger - 17 April 2007

    Yet still, it happens. Go figure.

    Still Mac OS X can bomb via "kernel panics" much more often that other UNIX computers. Why is that so? There must something that causes it.

    According to you, it's all due to sleep bugs.

    JR

  25. Jolly Roger - 17 April 2007

    Nobody has attacked your person here. It's *you* who seems to be on the offensive position here. In fact, nobody was talking to you at all until you went on the offensive with Dave.

    I've had plenty of kernel panics that had nothing at all to do with sleep.

    JR

  26. Hans Aberg - 17 April 2007

    What happens is that some code is becoming corrupted somewhere, and the kernel at a later point experiences it, causing the kernel panic. So there is no close connection there. It makes it very difficult to debug.

    Hans Aberg

  27. Dave Balderstone - 17 April 2007

    What "personal attack" are you referring to? There has been no personal attack in this thread.

    If you want one, however, it can be arranged.

    I am extraordinarily patient, provided I get my own way in the end. - Margaret Thatcher

  28. Mike Rosenberg - 17 April 2007

    Excuse me? I have no problem saying I'm wrong, and I have often posted to say I had made a mistake in a previous post.

    just look at the thread "Disk repair fails". Boy, did he really stupid remarks there. But did he post admitting that he was a dumbass there. Nope!

    Okay, I see the one and only post I made in the thread, in which I advised people it's prudent always act as if their drive may fail and to be sure to have a sensible backup in case of the worst. If you think that's stupid, well so be it, but perhaps you would care to explain why you think people should _not_ do this.

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  29. Dave Balderstone - 17 April 2007

    Ah. So the fact that you can't demonstrate a connection to the Mac sleeping is how you know it's there.

    Gotcha.

    My laptops have been put to sleep at least 10 times a week for years.

    I do not experience kernel panics when shutting down or restarting.

    I do not experience kernel panics at all.

    Which, I suppose, somehow proves your hypothesis?

    I am extraordinarily patient, provided I get my own way in the end. - Margaret Thatcher

  30. Hans Aberg - 17 April 2007

    Just tell why, if now the kernel looks at every instruction making sure it is correct, and if not, merely downs the process that owned it.

    No, I am saying that with code proper in the from of processes, a UNIX cmoputer almost never bombs. It is only taken down for maintenance. This is not what we are speaking about in terms of

    If you have kernel panics, it is easy to turn computer sleep off, to see if that helps it.

    Hans Aberg

  31. Hans Aberg - 17 April 2007

    The guy I was replying was named Stephen. Didn't read the thread before replying?

    You don't know what caused them.

    Hans Aberg

  32. Hans Aberg - 17 April 2007

    This

    So it is so much a part of yourself, you are not aware of it.

    Hans Aberg

  33. Mike Rosenberg - 17 April 2007

    I didn't read what I had written carefully before posting and missed seeing that I had left out "with." That should have been "Also, the gist of Dave's contention _with_ Hans..."

    Let's see, there's the subject line, which is "Can't shutdown. Won't shutdown." Then there's his description of the problem, which reads "My Mac Mini, version OSX 10.4.9, refuses to shut down correctly." He has a problem trying to shut down his mini." To answer your question, I derived that conclusion by reading what he had written. How did _you_ derive the conclusion that sleep is the problem?

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  34. Dave Balderstone - 17 April 2007

    That is a demonstrable fact, not an attack.

    I am extraordinarily patient, provided I get my own way in the end. - Margaret Thatcher

  35. Mike Rosenberg - 17 April 2007

    You call _that_ a personal attack? One a scale of 1 to 10, that's a 1.5 at best. Would you like to see what a 5 is like? (That's about as high as I think you should risk going for now.)

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  36. Hans Aberg - 17 April 2007

    The point is: get on the facts, and d not waste time on who is the culprit, that is just how technical lists work. And it is a too frequent phenomenon that those seeks someone to blame, were the ones who did it - I am not blaming you for it, but it just makes the practice bad. So let's get on with the technical issues, please!

    I do not recall the issue anymore: see the link to Apple support I posted in that thread.

    Hans Aberg

  37. Hans Aberg - 17 April 2007

    No. It was based on a number communications here, that reasoning about how the UNIX kernel and sleep works, and finally that suggestion to and response from Apple.

    My laptops have been put to sleep at least 10 times a week for years.

    I do not experience kernel panics when shutting down or restarting.

    I do not experience kernel panics at all.

    Which, I suppose, somehow proves your hypothesis?

    If you have drivers that are well written and handshaking well with the kernel with respect to sleep, then you may not get any problems.

    So my suggestion is that if you have problems with kernel panics, try to turn off sleep to see if that helps.

    If you do not have problems, do whatever you like. But UNIX wasn't written to handle sleep, so therefore, I have it turned off. Do whatever you like.

    Hans Aberg

  38. Hans Aberg - 17 April 2007

    Sorry, I thought it was a construction I should have been able to parse.

    I am just discussing kernel panics in general, pointing out the sleep thing, giving the OP the chance to get back for further info at need.

    Hans Aberg

  39. Hans Aberg - 17 April 2007

    Hardly, it does not bring the technical issue forward. Try to hang out at some moderated technical lists, to see if your stuff gets thorugh there.

    Hans Aberg

  40. Hans Aberg - 17 April 2007

    Personal attacks are so frequent in this newsgroup, you don't notice it anymore.

    Would you like to see what a 5 is like? (That's about as high as I think you should risk going for now.)

    Please don't try me. Such stuff just don't entertain me, that is why I am not engaging in it, not really that I do not know about it.

    Hans Aberg

  41. Hans Aberg - 17 April 2007

    I have to drop off here (among other things, handling some Apple bugreport communications).

    Hans Aberg

  42. Dave Balderstone - 17 April 2007

    I don't believe in censorship.

    I am extraordinarily patient, provided I get my own way in the end. - Margaret Thatcher

  43. Jolly Roger - 17 April 2007

    The onus is on *you* to prove that the only way to panic a kernel is with sleep functionality.

    JR

  44. Jolly Roger - 17 April 2007

    On 2007-04-17 18:20:07 -0500, Hans Aberg said:

    UNIX wasn't written to handle sleep

    Am I the only one who finds this statement somewhat amusing? : )

    JR

  45. Jolly Roger - 17 April 2007

    Neither do you.

    JR

  46. tacit - 17 April 2007

    You are experiencing a kernel panic. These indicate catastrophic failure of the running OS X kernel, and may be caused by hardware or software problems.

    Some Minis are alleged to have been loaded with a corrupt disk image at Apple, and to have problems with kernel panics which can be solved simply by doing an "archive and install" from the discs that came with them. I would try that first. If you continue to experience problems, run the Apple Hardware Test that came with your computer to rule out defective hardware.

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