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Apple Cinema Display on/off

Message #1 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Paul Nevai

My new Apple Cinema Display can be turned off. I am less concerned with energy savings and more concerned with wear'n'tear.

QUESTION. Should I leave the monitor on all the time or should I turn it off whenever I don't use it or should I use some in-between approach? Is there a generally accepted and recommended policy?

N.B. The Mac is on 24/7.

N.B. My 5 year old Apple Cinema Display is still in perfect condition after 5 years of 24/7 service.

/PaulN

Message #2 - Posted 2007/05/13 - patrick j

On May 13, 2007 Paul Nevai wrote:

My new Apple Cinema Display can be turned off. I am less concerned with energy savings and more concerned with wear'n'tear.

I would be very grateful if you would become concerned with energy savings

)

The global warming gradually increases all the time and it is worrying for the future.

QUESTION. Should I leave the monitor on all the time or should I turn it off whenever I don't use it or should I use some in-between approach? Is there a generally accepted and recommended policy?

Some people will say you should leave it on, some will say turn it off.

I think that it doesn't make any difference.

I'd turn it off myself :)

Patrick - Brighton, UK
If you wish email me from my web-site: <http://www.patrickjames.me.uk> Inventory service in Sussex: <http://www.inventoryworks.co.uk>

Message #3 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Paul Nevai

In comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc patrick j wrote:

On May 13, 2007 Paul Nevai wrote:

My new Apple Cinema Display can be turned off. I am less concerned with energy savings and more concerned with wear'n'tear.

I would be very grateful if you would become concerned with energy savings

)

Actually I am; more than you'd guess with one exception: my computers. The list of my global-warming-prevention steps is very long. /PaulN

Message #4 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Hans Aberg

Previously, paul@nevai.us wrote:

My new Apple Cinema Display can be turned off. I am less concerned with energy savings and more concerned with wear'n'tear.

QUESTION. Should I leave the monitor on all the time or should I turn it off whenever I don't use it or should I use some in-between approach? Is there a generally accepted and recommended policy?

A LCD display has a back-light that lasts just a couple of thousand of hours, and which is expensive to replace - probably better to buy new one. So it is important to turn it off, but this can be done in System Preferences -> Energy Saver -> Put the screen display to sleep. The traditional Screen Saver" was to avoid CRT burn ins, will not help you much, as the backlight is on.

N.B. The Mac is on 24/7.

There is no reason to turn Mac OS X off, except for maintenance and such (rebooting also makes some†cleanup of some temporary files). Computer sleep is only useful if you are bothered by fan noise or battery power, but also engages some code external to the UNIX kernel, which may cause kernel panics. A long time ago, a computer expert said that temperature changes in the digital board may cause material fatigue, which shortens the†life-span of the computer. So perhaps frequently turning it off will cause increased energy consumption in the form of having to manufacture a new one. :-)

Hans Aberg

Message #5 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Paul Nevai

In comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc Hans Aberg wrote:

A LCD display has a back-light that lasts just a couple of thousand of hours, and which is expensive to replace - probably better to buy new one. So it is important to turn it off, but this can be done in System Preferences -> Energy Saver -> Put the screen display to sleep. The traditional Screen Saver" was to avoid CRT burn ins, will not help you much, as the backlight is on.

QUESTION: Are "sleep" and "power off" the same for an Apple Cinema Display Monitor?

Thanks, PaulN

Message #6 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Mike Rosenberg

Paul Nevai wrote:

I would be very grateful if you would become concerned with energy savings

)

Actually I am; more than you'd guess with one exception: my computers. The list of my global-warming-prevention steps is very long. /PaulN

The thing is, despite what some people seem to want you to believe, computers are electronics appliances, subject to the same laws of physics, not to mention wear and tear, as other appliances. Oh, and finances apply just the same, too.

I turn off my Mac and all peripherals when I'm going to be away for more than an hour or so, always have, always will. I have _never_, in about 18 years of owning Macs, had any of them wear out prematurely, or wear out at all, actually. I've never so much as had a hard drive fail in that span -- I've only ever replaced my drives to increase capacity.

<http://designsbymike.biz/macconsultshop.shtml> Mac-themed T-shirts <http://designsbymike.biz/musings.shtml> Humorous/muckraking T-shirts <http://designsbymike.biz/prius.shtml> Prius shirts & bumper stickers <http://cafepress.com/comedancing> Ballroom dance-themed shirts & gift

Message #7 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Hans Aberg

Previously, paul@nevai.us wrote:

QUESTION: Are "sleep" and "power off" the same for an Apple Cinema Display Monitor?

Usually not, for most appliances, where it is often called "on standby". Some argue that these appliances should be turned off, when not in use, not merely be put on standby, to conserve energy. The environmental question is though complicated, and hard to analyze properly: energy consumption is tied to human consumption which is tied to money. So if you do some things to converse energy, you get some money resources over, which you probably will spend on other consumption, which will cause†environmental problems. If you live in a heated home, most of the energy that the†computer uses will be turned into heating of the home; so if you turn it off, the thermostat will automatically compensate. And so on.

Hans Aberg

Message #8 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Jolly Roger

On 2007-05-13 09:46:05 -0500, Mike Rosenberg said:

Paul Nevai wrote:

I would be very grateful if you would become concerned with energy savings

)

Actually I am; more than you'd guess with one exception: my computers. The list of my global-warming-prevention steps is very long. /PaulN

The thing is, despite what some people seem to want you to believe, computers are electronics appliances, subject to the same laws of physics, not to mention wear and tear, as other appliances. Oh, and finances apply just the same, too.

The age-old argument still applies.

When you start a computer from a cold state, there a substantial jolt of energy applied to components. Also, as components heat up, their contacts expand. Then when you turn off the computer, the components shrink as they cool down. This can cause the connections to become weak and eventually break. Some argue that because of this shrinkage and expansion it's actually better for your electronic components to leave the computer running than it is to turn it off. Also, if your display is fairly recent, it has power-saving sleep modes built in so that it consumes less energy when not in use.

I turn off my Mac and all peripherals when I'm going to be away for more than an hour or so, always have, always will. I have _never_, in about 18 years of owning Macs, had any of them wear out prematurely, or wear out at all, actually. I've never so much as had a hard drive fail in that span -- I've only ever replaced my drives to increase capacity.

I leave most of my Macs and all peripherals on 24/7, with most of the computers (and hard drives) configured to sleep when not in use without issue as well.

JR

Message #9 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Mike Rosenberg

Jolly Roger wrote:

The age-old argument still applies.

When you start a computer from a cold state, there a substantial jolt of energy applied to components. Also, as components heat up, their contacts expand. Then when you turn off the computer, the components shrink as they cool down. This can cause the connections to become weak and eventually break. Some argue that because of this shrinkage and expansion it's actually better for your electronic components to leave the computer running than it is to turn it off.

My point is that the same thing applies to all electronics, yet no one tells people to leave their TVs, for example, on all the time.

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Message #10 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Jolly Roger

On 2007-05-13 11:45:26 -0500, Mike Rosenberg said:

Jolly Roger wrote:

The age-old argument still applies.

When you start a computer from a cold state, there a substantial jolt of energy applied to components. Also, as components heat up, their contacts expand. Then when you turn off the computer, the components shrink as they cool down. This can cause the connections to become weak and eventually break. Some argue that because of this shrinkage and expansion it's actually better for your electronic components to leave the computer running than it is to turn it off.

My point is that the same thing applies to all electronics, yet no one tells people to leave their TVs, for example, on all the time.

Most of today's TV don't turn all the way off when you hit the Power button - they stay in a standby mode, right?

JR

Message #11 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Michael Black

Jolly Roger (jollyroger@R.E.M.O.V.E.pobox.com) writes:

On 2007-05-13 11:45:26 -0500, Mike Rosenberg said:

Jolly Roger wrote:

The age-old argument still applies.

When you start a computer from a cold state, there a substantial jolt of energy applied to components. Also, as components heat up, their contacts expand. Then when you turn off the computer, the components shrink as they cool down. This can cause the connections to become weak and eventually break. Some argue that because of this shrinkage and expansion it's actually better for your electronic components to leave the computer running than it is to turn it off.

My point is that the same thing applies to all electronics, yet no one tells people to leave their TVs, for example, on all the time.

Most of today's TV don't turn all the way off when you hit the Power button - they stay in a standby mode, right?

That's not the same thing.

Since most tv sets are now used with remote controls, they have to consume a tiny bit of current (which admittedly can add up when multiplied by how many tv sets there are) in order to keep the bit of electronics going that waits for the remote signal. It then can turn on the rest of the tv set.

This is far different from some tv sets in the old days that had "instant on", because those kept the filaments in the tubes warm by keeping voltage on the filaments all the time. It was usually not full voltage, but tube filaments consumed a fair amount of current. Even after solid state became the norm, I'm sure at least some tv sets kept current on the picture tube filament since that was the only thing that needed "warming up".

Michael

Message #12 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Jolly Roger

On 2007-05-13 12:19:14 -0500, Michael Black said:

Jolly Roger (jollyroger@R.E.M.O.V.E.pobox.com) writes:

On 2007-05-13 11:45:26 -0500, Mike Rosenberg said:

Jolly Roger wrote:

The age-old argument still applies.

When you start a computer from a cold state, there a substantial jolt of energy applied to components. Also, as components heat up, their contacts expand. Then when you turn off the computer, the components shrink as they cool down. This can cause the connections to become weak and eventually break. Some argue that because of this shrinkage and expansion it's actually better for your electronic components to leave the computer running than it is to turn it off.

My point is that the same thing applies to all electronics, yet no one tells people to leave their TVs, for example, on all the time.

Most of today's TV don't turn all the way off when you hit the Power button - they stay in a standby mode, right?

That's not the same thing.

Not the same as what? When your computer is in sleep mode, a lot of the components are in a low- or no-power mode, right? At any rate, we're digressing. There are advantages and disadvantages to either thing. It's really up to the OP to decide which is best for him.

JR

Message #13 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Hans Aberg

Previously, Jolly Roger wrote:

When you start a computer from a cold state, there a substantial jolt of energy applied to components. Also, as components heat up, their contacts expand. Then when you turn off the computer, the components shrink as they cool down. This can cause the connections to become weak and eventually break. Some argue that because of this shrinkage and expansion it's actually better for your electronic components to leave the computer running than it is to turn it off.

My point is that the same thing applies to all electronics, yet no one tells people to leave their TVs, for example, on all the time.

Most of today's TV don't turn all the way off when you hit the Power button - they stay in a standby mode, right?

Right. When people argue that the appliances should be turned off, it is†explicitly stated that one should turn the power-switch off, not merely put it on†standby from the remote. I saw something that this is a movement in the UK right now. A CRT (not LCD) benefits though from being demagnetized, so at least some TVs should be turned off fully from the power-switch (not only on standby) overnight. If one believes in the heat theory, that applies to all appliances that consumes a lot of heat, including TVs. There is also the factor of equipment burn-in: when an appliance is being manufactured, it should properly be turned on for awhile to burn in. I think this might have been done several decades ago, but not nowadays, because it is too expensive. So the consumer, when buying new stuff, should perhaps let it be on for a couple of months, well before the warranty expires, to see if it holds up; if it does, turn it off thereafter as is suitable.

Hans Aberg

Message #14 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Hans Aberg

Previously, Jolly Roger wrote:

At any rate,
we're digressing. There are advantages and disadvantages to either thing. It's really up to the OP to decide which is best for him.

I agree on this one. If one wants to know the real power consumption of an appliance under different circumstances, one can get one of those electronic electrical power meters that can be plugged into the outlet before it. There is probably quite of variation.

Hans Aberg

Message #15 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Paul Nevai

In comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc Mike Rosenberg wrote:

My point is that the same thing applies to all electronics, yet no one tells people to leave their TVs, for example, on all the time.

Excellent but not perfect point. Computers have user created info on them so we value them more since replacing them is more hassle than just getting a new TV. /PaulN

Message #16 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Paul Nevai

In comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc Hans Aberg wrote:

I agree on this one. If one wants to know the real power consumption of an appliance under different circumstances, one can get one of those electronic electrical power meters that can be plugged into the outlet before it. There is probably quite of variation.

I am the OP. Guess what. I happen to have one of those meters. I'll do some tests for fun. Or just camp out in the basement watching the house power meter. /PaulN

Message #17 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Paul Nevai

In comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc Hans Aberg wrote:

Usually not, for most appliances, where it is often called "on standby". Some argue that these appliances should be turned off, when not in use, not merely be put on standby, to conserve energy. The environmental question is though complicated, and hard to analyze properly: energy consumption is tied to human consumption which is tied to money. So if you do some things to converse energy, you get some money resources over, which you probably will spend on other consumption, which will cause?environmental problems. If you live in a heated home, most of the energy that the?computer uses will be turned into heating of the home; so if you turn it off, the thermostat will automatically compensate. And so on.

This is getting more and more subtle. What if the thermostat is on the first floor [zero in European usage], and the computer is on the second [one in Europe]? Especially since warm air rises, at least in the Northern hemispere. /PaulN

Message #18 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Hans Aberg

Previously, paul@nevai.us wrote:

Usually not, for most appliances, where it is often called "on standby". Some argue that these appliances should be turned off, when not in use, not merely be put on standby, to conserve energy. The environmental question is though complicated, and hard to analyze properly: energy consumption is tied to human consumption which is tied to money. So if you do some things to converse energy, you get some money resources over, which you probably will spend on other consumption, which will cause?environmental problems. If you live in a heated home, most of the energy that the?computer uses will be turned into heating of the home; so if you turn it off, the thermostat will automatically compensate. And so on.

This is getting more and more subtle. What if the thermostat is on the first floor [zero in European usage], and the computer is on the second [one in Europe]? Especially since warm air rises, at least in the Northern hemispere.

This can go on forever. They have "environment week" here in Sweden, where everyone tries to figure out what is right. Some says that homegrown is better,†because it avoids transports. No, because it may be grown in drive-houses, so transporting it on boat from South America is better. No, because the last part is by truck, and they chop down†rain-forest there. And so on. As for†computers, they may or may not use as much power as the light. So perhaps it saves to energy to sit in a dark room doing†computing than doing something else. A†Canadian report says that daylight saving does not actually save energy, because†people do other things in the daytime that consume more energy. I leave it to†everyone to†figure out their part of the environmental jigsaw puzzle. :-)

Hans Aberg

Message #19 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Mike Rosenberg

Paul Nevai wrote:

Excellent but not perfect point. Computers have user created info on them so we value them more since replacing them is more hassle than just getting a new TV.

OTOH, we can, and _should_ back up that info on a regular basis.

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Message #20 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Hans Aberg

Previously, paul@nevai.us wrote:

Computers have user created info on them so
we value them more since replacing them is more hassle than just getting a new TV.

Broadband and putting info on the net has in just last few years moved to the point in Sweden, that one really ought to have at least one backup computer.

Hans Aberg

Message #21 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Tim Murray

On May 13, 2007, Jolly Roger wrote:

When you start a computer from a cold state, there a substantial jolt of energy applied to components. Also, as components heat up, their contacts expand. Then when you turn off the computer, the components shrink as they cool down. This can cause the connections to become weak and eventually break.

I hear that a lot, but during sleep or any other similar "on-but-not-fully-powered-off" state, the components are going to be thermally darned close to being off. And further, a computer that's on but idling (no apps being used but otherwise turned on) be a LOT cooler that one doing intensive work -- like "warm" versus "ouch that's hot" difference.

Message #22 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Tim Murray

On May 13, 2007, Hans Aberg wrote:

No, because it may be grown in drive-houses

What's a drive-house? Mobile home?

Message #23 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Hans Aberg

Previously, no-spam@thankyou.com wrote:

No, because it may be grown in drive-houses

What's a drive-house? Mobile home?

Sorry, I am tired: hothouse (which in Swedish may be called "drivhus"). :-)

Hans Aberg

Message #24 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Hans Aberg

Previously, no-spam@thankyou.com wrote:

...during sleep or any other similar "on-but-not-fully-powered-off" state, the components are going to be thermally darned close to being off. And further, a computer that's on but idling (no apps being used but otherwise turned on) be a LOT cooler that one doing intensive work -- like "warm" versus "ouch that's hot" difference.

My interpretation is that all that counts, if the thermal theory is true. In addition, transistors that are not overheated are predicted to last a hundred years, but if they are overheated,†life-span is significantly shortened. Further, if one moves towards temperature extremes, the circuitry gets electrical unbalances, which can cause transistors to burn out instantly. I know some cases from northern Sweden, where a warm winter day may have -10 C, and where some†transported electronics have not been warmed up to room temperature before being turned on: for sure, it burns out.

Hans Aberg

Message #25 - Posted 2007/05/13 - Adrian

Jolly Roger wrote:

When you start a computer from a cold state, there a substantial jolt of energy applied to components. Also, as components heat up, their contacts expand. Then when you turn off the computer, the components shrink as they cool down. This can cause the connections to become weak and eventually break. Some argue that because of this shrinkage and expansion it's actually better for your electronic components to leave the computer running than it is to turn it off. Also, if your display is fairly recent, it has power-saving sleep modes built in so that it consumes less energy when not in use.

The argument makes sense, but having had experience of computers lasting 12 or 13 years which are regularly switched on and off perhaps the real effect is rather less than we imagine.

Adrian

Message #26 - Posted 2007/05/14 - patrick j

On May 13, 2007 Paul Nevai wrote:

I am the OP. Guess what. I happen to have one of those meters. I'll do some tests for fun. Or just camp out in the basement watching the house power meter. /PaulN

You know how to have fun :)

At the admin office in the university I work in there is a notice on the wall telling people to turn off their computers when they leave because a PC uses enough energy overnight to microwave six dinners.

I don't know where they got that information from but I thought I'd mention it.

Patrick - Brighton, UK
If you wish email me from my web-site: <http://www.patrickjames.me.uk> Inventory service in Sussex: <http://www.inventoryworks.co.uk>

Message #27 - Posted 2007/05/14 - Hans Aberg

Previously, patrick j wrote:

I am the OP. Guess what. I happen to have one of those meters. I'll do some tests for fun. Or just camp out in the basement watching the house power meter. /PaulN

You know how to have fun :)

At the admin office in the university I work in there is a notice on the wall telling people to turn off their computers when they leave because a PC uses enough energy overnight to microwave six dinners.

I don't know where they got that information from but I thought I'd mention it.

I would be nice with some hard facts. I suspect modern equipment (like LCD displays) do not draw much power when put in standby (or sleep). CRT TVs perhaps do.

As for the original question, my LCD display has a†micro-switch in front, which can be used to turn it off (or put in standby or whatever) in addition to a power-switch at the back. I have found this front†micro-switch quite convenient as a†complement to display sleep.

At a university, one might turn the personal†computers off, or put in sleep, for security reasons.

Hans Aberg

Message #28 - Posted 2007/05/14 - Adrian

patrick j wrote:

At the admin office in the university I work in there is a notice on the wall telling people to turn off their computers when they leave because a PC uses enough energy overnight to microwave six dinners.

What if you don't want your dinner microwaved?

<head bowed.. I'll get me coat then ...>

Adrian

Message #29 - Posted 2007/05/14 - Hans Aberg

Previously, Adrian wrote:

At the admin office in the university I work in there is a notice on the wall telling people to turn off their computers when they leave because a PC uses enough energy overnight to microwave six dinners.

What if you don't want your dinner microwaved?

A physician here claimed that†microwaving may not cook the food for long enough time as to become properly disinfected. Just another factor in the environmental discussion. :-)

Hans Aberg

Message #30 - Posted 2007/05/15 - patrick j

On May 14, 2007 Hans Aberg wrote:

A physician here claimed that†microwaving may not cook the food for long enough time as to become properly disinfected. Just another factor in the environmental discussion. :-)

Do you want your food to be disinfected?

Patrick - Brighton, UK
If you wish email me from my web-site: <http://www.patrickjames.me.uk> Inventory service in Sussex: <http://www.inventoryworks.co.uk>

Message #31 - Posted 2007/05/15 - Hans Aberg

Previously, patrick j wrote:

A physician here claimed that†microwaving may not cook the food for long enough time as to become properly disinfected. Just another factor in the environmental discussion. :-)

Do you want your food to be disinfected?

Why do you think food is heated? It makes it more easily digestible and kills off bacteria and viruses.

Hans Aberg

Message #32 - Posted 2007/05/15 - Clever Monkey

Hans Aberg wrote:

Previously, Adrian wrote:

At the admin office in the university I work in there is a notice on the wall telling people to turn off their computers when they leave because a PC uses enough energy overnight to microwave six dinners.

What if you don't want your dinner microwaved?

A physician here claimed that microwaving may not cook the food for long enough time as to become properly disinfected. Just another factor in the environmental discussion. :-)

This is the reason for the carousels and the "wait X minutes before peeling back the plastic on gods bounty" rule on the back of most frozen entrees. To make sure those cold spots are properly warmed to a safer temperature.

I suppose with a large enough item and a short amount of time (or spotty coverage by the unit) one could create a dangerous dinner (given that not all pathogens will be killed by the heating/freezing cycle at the food factory or your kitchen).

Most people set the thing on high for the proscribed number of minutes and walk away, leading to a super-heated environment. I'd be more worried about the nasty organic compounds that leach out of packaging when exposed to such high heats.

clvrmnky <mailto:spamtrap@clevermonkey.org>

Direct replies will be blacklisted. Replace "spamtrap" with my name to contact me directly.

Message #33 - Posted 2007/05/16 - Paul Nevai

In comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc Clever Monkey wrote:

Most people set the thing on high for the proscribed number of minutes and walk away, leading to a super-heated environment. I'd be more worried about the nasty organic compounds that leach out of packaging when exposed to such high heats.

I, the OP, had no idea that my question would generate such a literally heated discussion about subjects that have nothing to do with my Apple Cinema Display. So much fun...PaulN

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