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Can't start up from CD

Message #1 - Posted 2005/03/25 - John Rethorst

On 10.3.8. Tried holding the C key for direct CD startup (from the Apple Panther CD, disk 1), or the Option key to get a list of bootable volumes. Held the key from when screen is dark, also from when choosing Restart from the Apple menu. Machine starts up with volume selected in Prefs > Startup Disk every time. What's wrong?

John Rethorst
jrethorst at post dot com

Message #2 - Posted 2005/03/25 - matt neuburg

John Rethorst wrote:

On 10.3.8. Tried holding the C key for direct CD startup (from the Apple Panther CD, disk 1), or the Option key to get a list of bootable volumes. Held the key from when screen is dark, also from when choosing Restart from the Apple menu. Machine starts up with volume selected in Prefs > Startup Disk every time. What's wrong?

Not every machine responds to these keys. What kind of machine might this be?

Have you zapped the pram?

Have you inserted the Panther CD and started up the installer? m.

matt neuburg, phd = matt@tidbits.com, http://www.tidbits.com/matt/ AppleScript: The Definitive Guide
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596005571/somethingsbymatt Read TidBITS! It's free and smart. http://www.tidbits.com

Message #3 - Posted 2005/03/25 - Carl Witthoft

Previously, matt neuburg wrote:

John Rethorst wrote:

On 10.3.8. Tried holding the C key for direct CD startup (from the Apple Panther CD, disk 1), or the Option key to get a list of bootable volumes. Held the key from when screen is dark, also from when choosing Restart from the Apple menu. Machine starts up with volume selected in Prefs > Startup Disk every time. What's wrong?

Not every machine responds to these keys. What kind of machine might this be?

Have you zapped the pram?

Have you inserted the Panther CD and started up the installer? m.

I assume you've been successful in the past starting from this CD?

All I can offer is that on my flat-panel G4, I can start up from home-brewed disks created w/ BootCD. Sorry.

Message #4 - Posted 2005/03/25 - John Rethorst

Previously, matt neuburg wrote:

Not every machine responds to these keys. What kind of machine might this be?

Flat panel G4 17" iMac, OS 10.3.8

Have you zapped the pram?

Yes.

Thanks,

John Rethorst
jrethorst at post dot com

Message #5 - Posted 2005/03/25 - John Rethorst

Previously, John Rethorst wrote:

Have you zapped the pram?

Yes.

Or at least held down cmd-opt-p-r. Come to think of it, on OS 9 that would cause a second restart. Doesn't do that here.

John Rethorst
jrethorst at post dot com

Message #6 - Posted 2005/03/25 - matt neuburg

John Rethorst wrote:

Previously, John Rethorst wrote:

Have you zapped the pram?

Yes.

Or at least held down cmd-opt-p-r. Come to think of it, on OS 9 that would cause a second restart. Doesn't do that here.

Interesting. You do know that you have to hold it down a long time, right? And that it should reboot, and that you should keep holding cmd-opt-p-r for three or four reboots before letting go, right?

If that is failing, try actually booting up into open firmware and resetting the NVRAM directly, John. m.

matt neuburg, phd = matt@tidbits.com, http://www.tidbits.com/matt/ AppleScript: The Definitive Guide
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596005571/somethingsbymatt Read TidBITS! It's free and smart. http://www.tidbits.com

Message #7 - Posted 2005/03/25 - John Rethorst

Previously, matt neuburg wrote:

If that is failing, try actually booting up into open firmware and resetting the NVRAM directly, John. m.

Held down cmd-opt-o-f to boot into open firmware; machine started up as though no keys were down. Is there another way to boot into firmware?

John Rethorst
jrethorst at post dot com

Message #8 - Posted 2005/03/25 - Charles Dyer

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:29:53 -0500, John Rethorst wrote (in a previous article):

Previously, matt neuburg wrote:

If that is failing, try actually booting up into open firmware and resetting the NVRAM directly, John. m.

Held down cmd-opt-o-f to boot into open firmware; machine started up as though
no keys were down. Is there another way to boot into firmware?

that sounds like a USB problem. What keyboard do you have and how is it connected to the Mac?

We are Microsoft of Borg. You will be assimilated. Stability is irrelevant. Where _you_ want to go to today is irrelevant. We will add your currency to our own. Bend over right now. Resistance is futile.

Message #9 - Posted 2005/03/26 - Ernie Klein

Previously, John Rethorst wrote:

Previously, matt neuburg wrote:

If that is failing, try actually booting up into open firmware and resetting the NVRAM directly, John. m.

Held down cmd-opt-o-f to boot into open firmware; machine started up as though
no keys were down. Is there another way to boot into firmware?

It almost seems like the firmware isn't seeing the keyboard. Are you using some 3rd party keyboard that requires a driver? -- or a wireless keyboard? Firmware can't see those keyboards - only the standard USB keyboard. Just an idea.

-Ernie-

"There are only two kinds of computer users -- those who have suffered a catastrophic hard drive failure, and those who will."

Have you done your backup today?

Message #10 - Posted 2005/03/26 - matt neuburg

Charles Dyer wrote:

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:29:53 -0500, John Rethorst wrote (in a previous article):

Previously, matt neuburg wrote:

If that is failing, try actually booting up into open firmware and resetting the NVRAM directly, John. m.

Held down cmd-opt-o-f to boot into open firmware; machine started up as though
no keys were down. Is there another way to boot into firmware?

that sounds like a USB problem. What keyboard do you have and how is it connected to the Mac?

I agree - it is starting to sound like the keyboard isn't getting power early enough; try connecting directly to the computer (not a hub), and if that doesn't help, try another keyboard. Also try disconnecting everything else (leaving just the keyboard and mouse). m.

matt neuburg, phd = matt@tidbits.com, http://www.tidbits.com/matt/ AppleScript: The Definitive Guide
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596005571/somethingsbymatt Read TidBITS! It's free and smart. http://www.tidbits.com

Message #11 - Posted 2005/03/26 - lee doran

John Rethorst wrote:

Previously, John Rethorst wrote:

Have you zapped the pram?

Yes.

Or at least held down cmd-opt-p-r. Come to think of it, on OS 9 that would cause a second restart. Doesn't do that here.

Just a note to help alleviate misunderstandings, as you mentioned it didn't work under 10.3.8 but worked on OS 9 machines. At the point the mac is checking for keys such as command-option-p-r, option etc it doesn't have an OS loaded. It could have any OS X version, OS 9 (if it supports it), a BSD or a Linux installed. The firmware itself is what checks for that command combination.

The firmware is also somewhat limited in how well it can use a keyboard at such an early stage in boot, particularly with third party keyboards, keyboards through some USB hubs, through many KVMs and most wireless keyboards. If you haven't tried already check using an original apple wired USB keyboard connected directly to the computer.

Message #12 - Posted 2005/03/25 - Tom Stiller

Previously, John Rethorst wrote:

On 10.3.8. Tried holding the C key for direct CD startup (from the Apple Panther CD, disk 1), or the Option key to get a list of bootable volumes. Held the key from when screen is dark, also from when choosing Restart from the Apple menu. Machine starts up with volume selected in Prefs > Startup Disk every time. What's wrong?

Sounds to me like the OpenFirmware password and security mode are set. If so, there are ways to defeat it but you'll have to search them out for yourself.

Tom Stiller

PGP fingerprint = 5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3
7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF

Message #13 - Posted 2005/03/25 - John Rethorst

Previously, Tom Stiller wrote:

Sounds to me like the OpenFirmware password and security mode are set. If so, there are ways to defeat it but you'll have to search them out for yourself.

That would be plausible, except I've had this machine since new, and haven't set those.

John Rethorst
jrethorst at post dot com

Message #14 - Posted 2005/03/25 - John Rethorst

Previously, lee doran wrote:

If you haven't tried already check using an original apple wired USB keyboard connected directly to the computer.

That's what I'm using.

John Rethorst
jrethorst at post dot com

Message #15 - Posted 2005/03/25 - John Rethorst

Previously, Ernie Klein wrote:

It almost seems like the firmware isn't seeing the keyboard. Are you using some 3rd party keyboard that requires a driver? -- or a wireless keyboard? Firmware can't see those keyboards - only the standard USB keyboard. Just an idea.

Using the standard keyboard. Only new hardware in the last few months is a Logitech mouse, with USB Overdrive driving it.

John Rethorst
jrethorst at post dot com

Message #16 - Posted 2005/03/25 - John Rethorst

Previously, matt neuburg wrote:

I agree - it is starting to sound like the keyboard isn't getting power early enough; try connecting directly to the computer (not a hub), and if that doesn't help, try another keyboard. Also try disconnecting everything else (leaving just the keyboard and mouse). m.

No hub here; I'll try another keyboard when I can. The machine is doing other strange things though: with a Finder window open, when I run the script

tell application "Finder" to get name of window 1

--> Can't get name of window 1.

So I will work on it. Several people have contributed knowledgeable responses; thank you all.

John Rethorst
jrethorst at post dot com

Message #17 - Posted 2005/03/26 - Mike Rosenberg

John Rethorst wrote:

On 10.3.8. Tried holding the C key for direct CD startup (from the Apple Panther CD, disk 1)

Is that a Panther CD that shipped with your computer or one you got from another source? If it's the latter, it may not be new enough to support your computer.

Mike Rosenberg
<http://www.macconsult.com> Macintosh consulting services for NE Florida <http://bogart-tribute.net> Tribute to Humphrey Bogart Toyota Prius fans: Check out alt.autos.toyota.prius

Message #18 - Posted 2005/03/26 - matt neuburg

John Rethorst wrote:

Previously, Tom Stiller wrote:

Sounds to me like the OpenFirmware password and security mode are set. If so, there are ways to defeat it but you'll have to search them out for yourself.

That would be plausible, except I've had this machine since new, and haven't set those.

The Open Firmware password should still allow you to boot into Open Firmware so that you can *give* the password. - However, I do think that if the keyboard / USB port is not the problem, something *is* funny with Open Firmware, since this would explain most of the symptoms.

What happens if you hold down the power button for five seconds to reset things? If that doesn't work, what happens if you press the PMU reset button once:

<http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~dgolden/reset.jpg>

Just guessing wildly at this point. It would be nice to run the hardware test CD but I don't see how you can do that if you can't start up from CD. m.

matt neuburg, phd = matt@tidbits.com, http://www.tidbits.com/matt/ AppleScript: The Definitive Guide
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596005571/somethingsbymatt Read TidBITS! It's free and smart. http://www.tidbits.com

Message #19 - Posted 2005/03/26 - Tom Stiller

Previously, matt neuburg wrote:

John Rethorst wrote:

Previously, Tom Stiller wrote:

Sounds to me like the OpenFirmware password and security mode are set. If so, there are ways to defeat it but you'll have to search them out for yourself.

That would be plausible, except I've had this machine since new, and haven't set those.

The Open Firmware password should still allow you to boot into Open Firmware so that you can *give* the password. - However, I do think that if the keyboard / USB port is not the problem, something *is* funny with Open Firmware, since this would explain most of the symptoms.

True. In my zeal to supply something that hadn't already been suggested, I misread the symptom while starting with the Option key down, which would have brought up a password dialog, had it been enabled.

Tom Stiller

PGP fingerprint = 5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3
7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF

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